Protecting Schools and Sacred Spaces From ICE

Transcript

Transcripts are auto-generated

Karen : It shouldn't be that I had that right because I was born in the United States and someone else doesn't. And I think that we have to say these precious institutions, the place where we spend our time, where our kids are really shaped into who they are, they're being torn apart because of policies like these, and I think it's an obligation for those of us who do have the privilege of citizenship to see that and to stand up for others.

Natieka : Hello and welcome to School [00:00:30] Me, the National Education Association's podcast dedicated to helping educators thrive at every stage of their careers. I'm your host, Natieka Samuels. .For more than 30 years, schools, hospitals, and places of worship have been considered sensitive locations or spaces protected from immigration enforcement, but recently, president Trump has moved away to strip those protections, opening the door for ice to enter campuses and target families. Now, a coalition of educator unions, community organizations and families [00:01:00] has come together to fight back. The lawsuit PCUN v. Noem seeks to restore these decades-old protections and defend every student's right to learn without fear.

Joining me today is Karen Tumlin, founder and director of the Justice Action Center, and one of the attorneys leading this case. She's here to help us understand what's at stake, what this case could mean for educators and families, and how communities can take action to protect one another.

Thank you so much for joining us today, Karen.

Karen : Thank you, Natieka. It's so nice to be with you.

Natieka : [00:01:30] So let's take a few moments and just have you introduce yourself quickly to the audience. Who are you, where do you work? What's going on?

Karen : My name is Karen Tumlin. I am the founder and director of a nonprofit called Justice Action Center. And what we do is we combine the unique powers of high-impact litigation and storytelling all designed to improve the lives of immigrant communities in the United States.

Natieka : So you just went over it really quickly, but can you talk a little bit more about the mission and [00:02:00] the work of the Justice Action Center and how long have you been at it?

Karen : I would say in the school context, we're like a first, second-grader. We are entering our seventh year as an organization. I started the organization partway through the first Trump administration and before that I had been working in the immigrants rights space and bringing lawsuits against presidents on both sides of the aisle for a long time, but I really felt like we could be doing more to meet the moment and to make change. And [00:02:30] the reason I thought that was because courts are great and lawsuits are great, especially ones that create better conditions for people in the United States. But what I really wanted to see was wins that lasted, even though back then I was younger than I am today, I was already old enough to be bringing the same lawsuit against President Trump that I had won when I brought it against President Bush.

And what that tells you is, well, we won in court, but we didn't win [00:03:00] in changing hearts and minds. We didn't win in communicating to people, "Hey, it's not okay to detain families with babies and border patrol facilities and not provide diapers for those kids." Quite literally, that was the same lawsuit that we were having to bring. So I started Justice Action Center to say, all right, can we do this differently? How do we engage in the courtroom to ensure that the people who are the heart and soul of cases and lawsuits feel like those halls of justice are more open [00:03:30] to them and they really can tell their stories to both the court itself and the court of public opinion.

Natieka : So you have children who attend school in the Los Angeles school district, and LA has been obviously a hotspot for ice activity and a pretty central point of tension in the immigration fight that's happening right now. So can you talk a bit about what it's been like to be a parent in this place in a year like 2025?

Karen : I am an extremely proud parent of the LA Unified [00:04:00] School District. I love LA Unified. I'm so grateful to our teachers and school staff and administrators for how they handle so many things, including how they have handled really just terrifying immigration enforcement in our city over the last several months. It's really, really hard, is what I would say at the beginning. I would say that what we have been experiencing in Los Angeles is something that nobody should have to go through. I know we're not alone. I know [00:04:30] that our friends and neighbors in Chicago and in DC and potentially Portland are experiencing this now too.

But the truth is, I am fortunate. My daughter graduated from LA Unified Public High School and is in her second year at college now, and I have a sophomore. My son is at the same school in high school in LA Unified. And I am lucky because that high school is an amazing place. It's a huge school, over 2,000 kids, four schools within a [00:05:00] school. We are blessed with the best teachers and staff and they stood out front of the school on the first day of school this year, and our district sent over a thousand staff from the district offices to stand outside and welcome students to try to say it's safe for you to come to school.

And the reason they had to do that was less than a week before we had immigration agents detain at gunpoint, a 15-year-old with developmental disabilities [00:05:30] at Arleta High School when he was trying to register for classes, quite literally leaving bullets on the sidewalk behind them, and that's a violation. Our schools are safe spaces. I'm proud of LA Unified for what they've done to try to keep our school safe. My heart hurts, my mama heart hurts for what our kids and our teachers and our staff are going through.

Natieka : Yeah, and that's a perfect segue, unfortunately to the meat of our conversation today, which [00:06:00] is about this court case, PCUN v. Noem. So can you briefly explain what that case is all about and what prompted it and our response to it? Because spoiler alert, if you didn't listen to the intro of the podcast, NEA is a part of the coalition of organizations and community members and faith groups who are joining together for this case.

Karen : That is the spoiler alert. So we are so honored to represent [00:06:30] NEA as a plaintiff in this lawsuit. And so let me share a little bit about what it's about.

For over 30 years, our federal immigration agencies have had policies, those policies say, we don't conduct immigration enforcement or immigration raids at, "sensitive locations." What's a sensitive location? Well, it's schools, hospitals, community food banks, that's just a few, but schools are key. And what they've said is, "We will not come to schools, we will not come to [00:07:00] your pickup lines, we will not come to graduations. We will not come to baseball games and try to inquire about immigration status or apprehend individuals. We will do that in other places and we will only come to schools if it's been flagged in advance, approved by headquarters and we think there's some kind of terrorism threat." Well, that's just good sane policy because what we need in this country is we need teachers to be able to teach, schools to be able to places of learning and people to be able to go hold their parents' hand at [00:07:30] a hospital when their parent is dying and not have to do the calculus of, is it safe for me to sit by my mom's bedside today or might I run into an immigration agent?

Unfortunately, President Trump rescinded that policy in his first week in office this term, even though when he was president before he had kept it in place the entire four years and he gave no explanation for why he did that. And NEA, along with other plaintiffs, including PCUN, who's the first plaintiff, which is a labor union in Oregon, [00:08:00] we filed a lawsuit saying, you know what? That's illegal in several ways for you to change this policy without explaining it. It's illegal because, for example, some of our plaintiffs are churches or houses of worship. It's illegal because if you are now saying, "I'm going to come do immigration enforcement around your church when you're worshiping," that infringes on my free exercise of religion, and it's also unlawful because the president is accountable and yes, we [00:08:30] elect a new president, he can change policies, but he must give a rational reason for the change if it impacts humans, and that was not done here.

Natieka : So for decades, these sensitive locations have been protected, and I would like you to just add a little bit more emphasis on why it is so important that these protections are in place. Because I think the argument that I've heard on the other side of this is, you can't run from the law, you can't run from ICE. [00:09:00] You are going to get taken no matter where you are, so there should be no safe place for people. So for those who it might not be obvious why that seems problematic, can you talk a little bit about why it's so important to have these protected spaces?

Karen : I think we have to ask ourselves at what cost, and what are the alternatives? So for decades, for over 30 years, our immigration agency has been able to function just fine figuring out who it is and other places [00:09:30] to question them, apprehend them and detain them that are not our K through 12 schools and our hospitals and our food banks. And the reason for that is, yes, if you are my son, you spend a lot of your day at the high school, you do, you're there at eight something and then you're there until practice lets out at the end of the day. But there's plenty of other places where if you are a priority for the immigration agency, they can find you. [00:10:00] And by saying, "It's a no-go zone at our school," it honors one thing, schools are there to teach, and you have to step back for a second and say, "Well, what does our constitution have to say about this?"

We have a constitutional right in this country to K through 12 education regardless of where you were born, regardless of the accident of your birth and your citizenship. And we do that for a very key reason, that case Plyler v. Doe, what it says is, I mean, it essentially [00:10:30] all but says the children are our future. But what it really says is, "Because otherwise we create a permanent underclass." What is the consequence if we don't open the schoolhouse doors to everyone here? And so I think that's my response, which is, please, after all that we have been through, here we are five years post pandemic and all the learning gaps that exist and the challenges that exist to being an amazing public school teacher these days, let the schoolhouses [00:11:00] be places where kids can be safe from fears of immigration enforcement and where they can learn.

Natieka : So it sounds like this isn't just a policy change, but a violation of just longstanding norms and just ways of being. And what do you think makes this moment different or more dangerous than past enforcement efforts by either Trump himself or past presidents?

Karen : I think that's a really wise question. And I think for me, and it's something I've been sitting with [00:11:30] in my own life, I think a lot of us are, I think this moment is worse because the fear and the cruelty is the point in many ways.

I can tell you a little bit about my experience as a mom in LA Unified and also a little bit about what the NEA members have said themselves in our lawsuit so far. So for me as a mom, my son plays baseball. I love that. It's one of my favorite parts about the weekend is getting to be with the school community and the other parents. And there was a time where we [00:12:00] were afraid, we thought that immigration agents were showing up and I got kind of tapped like, "You've got to go, go figure out what's going on," because you know each other in these communities and they knew like, "Hey, that mom is a lawyer mom, and that mom is also an immigration lawyer mom, and let's send her." And also the listeners don't know this, I'm a white woman, I have privilege in interacting with law enforcement in this country. So off I went.

But the whole time my heart is pounding because [00:12:30] thinking to myself, "Okay, I know some of the parents and their immigration status, what about the kids? Are all the kids safe?" And people are running, people are running from a beautiful event trying to make sure, are they safe, are they not safe? And we have seen this scene repeated throughout our country in numerous settings. Turns out it was not immigration, it was LAPD doing some routine stuff in the area. I had a lovely chat with them and could come back to the rest of the baseball game. But [00:13:00] it's the fear, people feel no longer safe because they never know what enjoyable family event could be ripped from them and could become a time where they are taken away because of what they look like, because they might be speaking Spanish or cheering for their son in Spanish instead of English, and that's just not okay.

And then I can tell you what some of the teachers have said in the lawsuit itself. Teachers, NEA members across the country, [00:13:30] Kansas, California, and all the places in between are saying, "Since this change in policy, we've had a drop in attendance." Teachers are saying, "I have students who are saying to me, 'Why should I even care or bother or try to take these college prep classes, I'm just going to get deported or my parents are going to get deported.'" We have NEA members who were reporting parents won't come to back to school meetings because they're afraid of immigration enforcement. [00:14:00] We had a teacher, and this broke my heart, parents were fearful and would not enter into IEPs for their children because they thought they would be giving too much information about their kids or themselves and it would make them vulnerable to immigration enforcement. Our kids aren't getting what they need because of these policies.

Natieka : In addition to the kids that are, their immigrant status or their parents' immigrant status affects their situation and their comfortability coming to school, [00:14:30] we understand that. But what about the effects on other children who are American citizens? Their parents are American citizens? How does this affect them?

Karen : I think it affects all of us. I mean, for me, it affects me because some of our most precious institutions and events are being taken away from us. Baseball games are the place to say, "Oh my gosh is today my kid is going to hit the ball over the fence?" They're for that. They're not for worrying about [00:15:00] who has citizenship and who might not and what do I say to law enforcement. That is a violation, so that's being taken from us.

And also just I think it's really important to say everyone deserves what I enjoy. Everyone deserves the right to be able to go to a back-to-school event and meet their kids' teachers. Everybody deserves to be able to sit at the volleyball game and cheer for their kid. And it shouldn't be that I had that right because I was born in the United States and [00:15:30] someone else doesn't. And I think that we have to say, these precious institutions, the place where we spend our time, where our kids are really shaped and to who they are, they're being torn apart because of policies like these. And I think it's an obligation for those of us who do have the privilege of citizenship to see that and to stand up for others.

Natieka : I think that with some of these things, there's tons of laws on the books that are never enforced. There are tons of policies that come up [00:16:00] and people aren't actually doing what's in the policy. So I think there's a lot of skepticism sometimes where people say, "Okay, well this might be the policy, but that doesn't mean they're going to do it." Or, "They're not going to abuse this authority, they're just only going to use it when they need to," whenever that means. So how would your team respond to this argument that if the administration has says, we won't abuse this authority, what kind of assurances can we have about that? How do you respond to that?

Karen : [00:16:30] I mean, I just look at what has happened. So for me, and LA Unified already told you about what happened in our school registration week before the first week of classes this week. But before that, we had immigration agents come on the same day to two separate elementary schools, elementary schools in LA Unified. And our staff has been trained, our staff has been trained. They denied entrance. They tried to deny entrance to the immigration agents and the immigration agents, A, [00:17:00] refused to identify themselves. And B, said, "We have the consent of the parents to talk to these kids." Guess what we learned? Those were lies. The parents did not consent. And so my answer to it is, no, the facts do not play out that we can just trust that these policies will be done properly and that the enforcement at our schools will only happen when it's truly needed or when parents have consented to questioning or those kinds of things. That's not what's playing out.

I would also call out the story [00:17:30] of our plaintiffs from a school in Beaverton, Oregon. It's a preschool called Guideposts. So we have both the head of the school as well as parents because a father who by the way was a green card holder, was stopped in the drop off-line for his 4-year-old by immigration agents. And he said, "I have a kid in the car, please, can you just wait 10 minutes? My wife, who's a US citizen is on the way, just wait so you don't question or take me in front of this child." [00:18:00] And they refused. They bashed in his car window, detaining him in the pick-up line in sight of these young children. So again, the evidence since this policy change in the first week of the President's term show that discretion isn't being used, they're not taking adequate precautions to not make our schools unsafe and places where kids are traumatized.

Natieka : Thanks for listening to School Me, and a quick thank you to all of the NEA members [00:18:30] listening. If you're not an NEA member yet, visit nea.org/whyjoin to learn more about member benefits.

So what are educators seeing day to day? You already talked a little bit about attendance and a general feeling of unsafety, I'm assuming that this is making a lot of people anxious and affecting the ability to learn. So when families fear immigration enforcement near or inside of a school, what is the chilling effect [00:19:00] on the students, the educators, everybody who works there?

Karen : You just can't underestimate the effects. So it's all the things that you already said about class size diminishing, kids just going missing. And then it was one story after another of teachers really saying, "I speak to my kids one-on-one and they talked to me about the anxiety that they're carrying now daily because they wonder, 'Will my parent be there when I go home from school or will they not?'" And [00:19:30] how it's interfering with their ability to focus on their classes, participate, and just the level of despondency. And let's be real, we already have an issue. I'm a parent of teens, we already have an issue with social isolation, loneliness, and mental health among our young people. And so adding these kind of pressures, it is just too much.

Natieka : Since COVID started, there was also already attendance issues and things unrelated to immigration that we were dealing with before, so now this just adds a new [00:20:00] layer. I know that many educators are taking on the role of protectors of their students in ways that they haven't had to before. Do you have some examples or some things you could talk about in terms of what educators have been doing now that this is becoming more of a reality and what does that say about the work and role of educators in this moment?

Karen : I mean, I will say that one of my son's teachers is amazing... All of my son's teachers [00:20:30] are amazing, but one of the things that makes one of them amazing is that he likes to hold parent Zooms to check in. And so the first week of school, we were all of two days in and he held the parent Zoom and a bunch of parents, of course, get on the Zoom because we're so excited to hear from one of the teachers. And he just says, "Open call, for folks. Tell me how do you think school's going in the first week?" And the first parent who spoke, somebody I'd never met before just said, "I was so moved and I felt [00:21:00] so safe because when I went to drop my daughter off, all of the teachers and staff were standing out front creating a place of safety for us to come in."

Obviously this is the work that I do. It is my day job to work on issues for immigrants, including immigrant students, but my heart was so both full and sad all at the same time, so full because those were our educators literally with their bodies making this mom [00:21:30] feel safe and making this child feel safe and welcomed into our schools when all the noise in the country was making them not feel safe. And on the other hand, just so sad that that is the weight of what another parent and child is carrying into school. And so it just brings me to immense gratitude for what our educators are doing in small and big ways every day to send a message that, I'm here to teach regardless of where you were born and you're safe with me.

Natieka : Getting [00:22:00] into a little bit of the legal part of things, what are you and your team asking the court to do in this case? And what could a legal victory mean for our communities?

Karen : So what we're asking is really simple. We are saying that the policy that was put in place, which is a memorandum that ended the protections for sacred spaces or sensitive locations be taken away nationwide. We are saying, you didn't meet [00:22:30] the basic legal standard in order to change that policy, so we need to go back in the magic time machine to the legal state of affairs the day before you ended that policy that we had enjoyed for over 30 years, that is what we were asking for. And because we have this diversity of plaintiffs from NEA, which of course has members in all 50 states, to a church in Florida and one in San Diego and a labor union in Oregon, we're asking for that [00:23:00] hopeful victory to be available nationwide.

Natieka : As you mentioned, there's a huge coalition, unions like NEA and AFT, faith groups, local advocates, why is it so important to have this kind of broad unity, different spaces, different groups coming together? Why is that so important in this fight?

Karen : I think it's so important because I think right now the discussions in this country around immigration and a lot of ways are toxic. And in a lot of ways [00:23:30] we villainize folks who are not native born to the United States. And I think that this coalition, including NEA and AFT and teachers and parents in a Montessori school in Oregon, show us, "Well wait minute, you're saying immigration, but what I'm experiencing is disruptions in my schools. You're saying this is about immigration enforcement, but what I'm seeing is that kids can't learn and teachers can't teach."

[00:24:00] And I think that it's really important for us as a country to have conversations about where are our bright lines, and I hope that all kids deserve a K through 12 education is a bright line for our country, and that's why I think that this coalition is so powerful. I hope that our country believes that no one should have to make the calculus of, do I go in and have my chest pains checked out or is that dangerous to me because maybe [00:24:30] immigration enforcement will be at the hospital? I hope that we can all agree that no matter what your religion is or if you have a religion that when people are worshiping or in a religious house of worship to bury their dead, that should be protected from immigration enforcement. And I think that that's what this coalition lets us talk about.

Natieka : So for those of us like me who are not lawyers, can you explain a bit about the life cycle of a case like this? So we've talked a bit about the purpose of the case and why [00:25:00] it came about and talked a little bit about the plaintiffs and their stories. But just functionally, how does a case like this work?

Karen : The first thing you do is you say, "Okay, I'm bringing this case," that's called the complaint. And you say, "Here are the people who are harmed by the policy that I think is unlawful and here are the reasons why I think it's unlawful." And then there's a section at the end called the Prayer for Relief, and that is what you're asking the court to do. So that's kind of the first move.

And then the other side [00:25:30] generally responds and they say, "You know what? Here are all the reasons why we don't think this case even deserves to exist in the first place." And there's often a fight about that. Are these plaintiffs really harmed by the policy that they're questioning, yes or no? So we are kind of in the middle of that dispute.

And then the plaintiffs, that's us, they have to make a motion of some sort and say, "Okay, court, here's all our reasons why. Like we told you this is unlawful and we think that you should give us some relief [00:26:00] or a legal victory."

And so that's kind of the next move that will be coming, which is we'll present all that in paperwork, which will include more testimony from NEA members, and the other side will respond, and then hopefully we have an in-person hearing or a Zoom hearing before the judge, and then we get the long-awaited ruling. So that's kind of what the life cycle is. But something that we like to think about is, each time that happens, every time we present papers to the court, we're there to tell the stories of our plaintiffs. [00:26:30] And in this case, it's the teachers and the members and the NEA, how are they impacted by immigration agents at schools and what is it they need to see happen to change those negative impacts?

Natieka : Again, for people who like me are not lawyers, I often wonder about how we as individuals who agree with the premise of a case like this can support people like you who are fighting for this outcome. So [00:27:00] obviously we can't vote on how the case goes, but how can people who are listening right now who are in support help?

Karen : So many ways. So first of all, I would encourage anyone who's listening and who is like, "Oh, I'm so proud the NEA is part of that lawsuit," this matters to me. Please look us up at justiceactioncenter.org, you can follow us on social media, but you can go to our website and click on cases and you'll see this case listed, PCUN v. Noem. And on there you'll see [00:27:30] a bunch of stuff that you can help amplify. We have social media posts on this.

And I just want to be really direct and say, when we talk to the courts, yes, we're ready. We tell them all the legal reasons why this is unlawful. But our secret power is the stories of the NEA teachers and staff themselves, is when we say, "And this is how it's mattering in the classroom." So if you are listening to this now and you're like, "Well, let me tell you what's happening in my classroom because of these policies," share [00:28:00] on social media, like, "I teach school and this is how my kids are impacted. And I'm so glad that NEA is part of this pushback. I just want to do my job as a teacher." I think that people should not underestimate how much that matters because I believe it's precisely the marrying up of, this policy is really unlawful with this is how it is impacting our kids and our educators that really will make the difference and the change we want to see.

Natieka : And so besides the [00:28:30] online legal things that we're talking about here, there's obviously ways that individuals can help. So for anyone listening right now who's outraged by what's happening, maybe even starting to see this happen in their school districts and communities, what can they do right now, tomorrow, next week to support the spirit of this case and stand with the immigrant families that they know in real life?

Karen : I know that this podcast is not [00:29:00] meant to be a promotion of the LA Unified School District, but so be it. I am so fortunate I am in LA Unified. Our principal has called Meetings for Students, has said... So I would say start in your school. Has your principal called a meeting and said to all students at lunchtime, "If you are worried about what's happening in immigration enforcement and you want to talk about it, we're available at this time." Has that happened in your school? Has your school handed out to students, know your rights materials about [00:29:30] what to do if immigration enforcement shows up at the school?

If you know immigrant students or parents in your school, check in with them. "Hey, how are you doing? I know that there's been a lot of talk about immigration enforcement, is there more you want to see us doing or the school doing? How can I help?" And you might be surprised to learn that somebody says, "You know what? I don't feel safe taking my son to the baseball games anymore, would you mind helping me with carpool?" And so I would say start at your school, [00:30:00] check in and ask, "Has my school done what it can to let our students know and the parents know we're a safe space?" And then check in with folks that and say, "Is there anything I can do to help make sure that you can attend events just like I can?"

Natieka : And people think of LA as being a pretty progressive place, a pretty blue place, but not everybody lives in a blue place. So for anyone listening who might live in a let's say, redder [00:30:30] place where perhaps there's not going to be as much energy immediately around this, or maybe you've heard something where it's like, no, everyone is really against this regardless of how they voted. Assuming that that's not necessarily the case, how can people work around that? How can people who might be the blue person in the red bubble do what needs to be done and provide the support that needs to be provided?

Karen : Yeah, it is really important. And I, of [00:31:00] course, am the proud product of the Houston Independent School District, that's where I went to school and grew up, and so of course Houston is a blue city in a lot of ways surrounded by a lot of red. But I think that some of the basics are the same. And I'm aware because I still have friends and family in Houston Independent School District, and they have put out statements on immigration enforcement, but they're very mixed messages to what has been told in HISD.

And so I think my answer to this is similar, which is start where you can [00:31:30] in your community. If you're a teacher, are there other teachers or educators in your school that you can talk to and say, "Hey, what are you seeing? This is what I'm seeing. Do you think there's any way we could get our school to do more? Do you think there's anything we could do to address some of the attendance issues and anxiety that our students are seeing?"

And if you're a parent in those situations, one-on-one is the way to go, raise the issue when you're at back-to-school night with a teacher or administrator [00:32:00] and say, "I'm concerned. I know there's been immigration activity around our schools and I'm concerned about attendance. I'm concerned about the weight of anxiety it places on our staff. What are you doing to address it?" Or offer yourself to another parent, whether it is, and just say, "I don't know if you're impacted, but do you know anybody who is impacted and could use support around these issues? How can we make it a little bit more clear here that we want our school to be a welcoming [00:32:30] place for all students?"

Natieka : I know it must be a tough time to be an immigration lawyer. What is giving you hope right now?

Karen : I am given hope every day by the plaintiffs that we are so honored to represent, to be honest. Even in preparing to talk to you, I went back and I looked at the lawsuit that we filed, and as a lawyer, we know how the sausage is made, we are lifting up the curtain to Oz, and I was reading all of the paragraphs [00:33:00] that were put in the complaint, but I know how they came about. So there's like 20 paragraphs on NEA, and what it is one story after another from a teacher in one state after another saying, "This is what's happening in my school and why I'm not okay with it." And it just makes you not feel alone. It just makes you feel like, wait a minute, with everything that's going on right now, I see that so many of us [00:33:30] from Kansas to Oregon to Florida, we have so much in common and we in fact have more in common than we have that separates us.

We all have a love for our kids. We all have a belief that our schools are a place where everybody should have opportunity. It gives me hope to really be able to see the work that people do every day, showing up to school to teach our kids, showing up to community health clinics to help others. I keep my footing in that, [00:34:00] and I just want to express my gratitude. I want to express my gratitude for the NEA and the NEA members for what they do every day to make sure that our kids can thrive and that they feel safe and valued in the school system. I know that it's a hard time, but I just want to say, really thank you to the NEA for being willing to stand up and say, "No, we disagree with this." A lot of folks are afraid to speak out right now in this environment, and I think that [00:34:30] as our country's largest union really saying, "No, this is unacceptable. Hands off of our schools and hands off of our kids," is really important.

Natieka : Thank you so much, Karen, for joining us today and talking about this super important case.

Karen : Thank you so much for your help and for giving me this great place to get to Chat, Natieka.

Natieka : Thanks for listening. Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss a single episode of School Me. And take a minute to rate the show and leave a review. It really helps us out and it makes it easier for more educators to find us. For more tips [00:35:00] to help you bring the best to your students, text POD, that's P-O-D, to 48744.